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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2015 22:14:14 GMT -5
based on what? 7% appreciation? 5 percent. When you go out that far it's pretty significant.
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Post by flemgoblue on Jan 19, 2015 22:14:59 GMT -5
sure.. either way, its a stupid contract
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2015 22:23:01 GMT -5
sure.. either way, its a stupid contract Yea, the Tiger's initial offer was almost better imo. Other than the 7th year.
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Post by fastfreddie on Jan 20, 2015 8:23:09 GMT -5
It's a redonk contract but it's not the same. All that money back loaded isn't worth the same in today's $$. I'd almost feel worse, if the Tigers signed him to this contract, and the team was paying him for several years into retirement.
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Post by philly on Jan 20, 2015 8:42:54 GMT -5
It's a redonk contract but it's not the same. All that money back loaded isn't worth the same in today's $$. Not so fast my friend. Always consult your local tax master Max Scherzer and the Washington Nationals agreed to a seven-year, $210 million contract with provisions that take advantage of District tax laws to save Scherzer money and keep the team’s present-day payments down via historic deferrals, sources familiar with the deal told Yahoo Sports. Scherzer, 30, received the second-largest guarantee ever for a pitcher, just $5 million behind the contract Clayton Kershaw signed a year ago, though the payment structure is entirely different. Scherzer will get $15 million a year for the next 14 years, sources said, deferring half the money until after the contract expires. It is by far the largest sum ever deferred in a deal, not quite matching Bobby Bonilla’s 25-year deferral from the Mets in length but more than tripling it in value. View photo .Max Scherzer, 30, received the second-largest guarantee ever for a pitcher. (Getty) Max Scherzer, 30, received the second-largest guarantee ever for a pitcher. (Getty) To make up for the loss with the deferrals – because of inflation and lost interest-earning opportunity, future money is worth less than present – Scherzer will receive $50 million in the form of a signing bonus spread over multiple years, the source said. The benefit to structuring the contract as such is that because his permanent residence is outside the District, Scherzer will not be subject to a state income tax on money earned in Washington, D.C. The Home Rule Act, established in 1973, exempts nonresidents from paying state income taxes at the capital’s 8.5 percent rate. In practice, it means Scherzer would save more than $4.25 million of the $50 million bonus he’ll receive in Washington, D.C. – though just how much of that would be subject to tax elsewhere depends on the state in which he earns the money and where he resides. Additionally, none of the $105 million in deferred money would be subject to state taxes, potentially saving Scherzer another $8.92 million. All told, the lack of state income tax in D.C., when compared to playing in tax-heavy states, could save Scherzer eight figures. One source said the tax advantages could end up at more than $20 million, offsetting much of the money lost via deferrals. Much like Florida and Texas, which don’t have a state income tax, playing in D.C. provides a significant boon for out-of-state athletes, said Robert Raiola, a CPA who specializes in helping athletes. “His goal was to get over $200 million,” Raiola said. “And he was able to do that with deferred compensation while saving money on the tax front.” The tax play is a rejoinder against those who argue that the deal’s so-called “net present value” – how much it’s worth today based on the future money being worth less than present – is less than $210 million. One calculation similar to what Major League Baseball uses pegs the deal at a net present value of around $185 million, an average annual value of about $26.4 million a year. Calculating net present value is difficult, particularly without details as to when the Nationals will pay his bonuses. Should one arrive in January of a year, for example, it would be worth more than one in July. Either way, the deferrals do eat significantly into the actual value of the deal. Ever-shifting tax rates make it even tougher to pinpoint exactly how much Scherzer will save, too. The advantage for the team isn’t as significant as one might believe, either. Baseball’s collective-bargaining agreement calls for the Nationals to start funding the deferred payments by July 1, 2017, with enough money in a liquid asset to cover the first payment in 2022. Scherzer laid a monstrous bet on himself, and it paid massive dividends. He rejected a seven-year, $160 million offer last spring from his old team, the Detroit Tigers, and ended up with the best team in baseball on the richest free-agent contract ever signed by a pitcher, no matter how much of it he’ll receive in 2028.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2015 9:37:14 GMT -5
It's a redonk contract but it's not the same. All that money back loaded isn't worth the same in today's $$. Not so fast my friend. Always consult your local tax master Max Scherzer and the Washington Nationals agreed to a seven-year, $210 million contract with provisions that take advantage of District tax laws to save Scherzer money and keep the team’s present-day payments down via historic deferrals, sources familiar with the deal told Yahoo Sports. Scherzer, 30, received the second-largest guarantee ever for a pitcher, just $5 million behind the contract Clayton Kershaw signed a year ago, though the payment structure is entirely different. Scherzer will get $15 million a year for the next 14 years, sources said, deferring half the money until after the contract expires. It is by far the largest sum ever deferred in a deal, not quite matching Bobby Bonilla’s 25-year deferral from the Mets in length but more than tripling it in value. View photo .Max Scherzer, 30, received the second-largest guarantee ever for a pitcher. (Getty) Max Scherzer, 30, received the second-largest guarantee ever for a pitcher. (Getty) To make up for the loss with the deferrals – because of inflation and lost interest-earning opportunity, future money is worth less than present – Scherzer will receive $50 million in the form of a signing bonus spread over multiple years, the source said. The benefit to structuring the contract as such is that because his permanent residence is outside the District, Scherzer will not be subject to a state income tax on money earned in Washington, D.C. The Home Rule Act, established in 1973, exempts nonresidents from paying state income taxes at the capital’s 8.5 percent rate. In practice, it means Scherzer would save more than $4.25 million of the $50 million bonus he’ll receive in Washington, D.C. – though just how much of that would be subject to tax elsewhere depends on the state in which he earns the money and where he resides. Additionally, none of the $105 million in deferred money would be subject to state taxes, potentially saving Scherzer another $8.92 million. All told, the lack of state income tax in D.C., when compared to playing in tax-heavy states, could save Scherzer eight figures. One source said the tax advantages could end up at more than $20 million, offsetting much of the money lost via deferrals. Much like Florida and Texas, which don’t have a state income tax, playing in D.C. provides a significant boon for out-of-state athletes, said Robert Raiola, a CPA who specializes in helping athletes. “His goal was to get over $200 million,” Raiola said. “And he was able to do that with deferred compensation while saving money on the tax front.” The tax play is a rejoinder against those who argue that the deal’s so-called “net present value” – how much it’s worth today based on the future money being worth less than present – is less than $210 million. One calculation similar to what Major League Baseball uses pegs the deal at a net present value of around $185 million, an average annual value of about $26.4 million a year. Calculating net present value is difficult, particularly without details as to when the Nationals will pay his bonuses. Should one arrive in January of a year, for example, it would be worth more than one in July. Either way, the deferrals do eat significantly into the actual value of the deal. Ever-shifting tax rates make it even tougher to pinpoint exactly how much Scherzer will save, too. The advantage for the team isn’t as significant as one might believe, either. Baseball’s collective-bargaining agreement calls for the Nationals to start funding the deferred payments by July 1, 2017, with enough money in a liquid asset to cover the first payment in 2022. Scherzer laid a monstrous bet on himself, and it paid massive dividends. He rejected a seven-year, $160 million offer last spring from his old team, the Detroit Tigers, and ended up with the best team in baseball on the richest free-agent contract ever signed by a pitcher, no matter how much of it he’ll receive in 2028. That somehow means the present value of money 14 years from now has changed?
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Post by philly on Jan 20, 2015 9:54:46 GMT -5
Additionally, none of the $105 million in deferred money would be subject to state taxes, potentially saving Scherzer another $8.92 million. All told, the lack of state income tax in D.C., when compared to playing in tax-heavy states, could save Scherzer eight figures. One source said the tax advantages could end up at more than $20 million, offsetting much of the money lost via deferrals.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2015 10:41:32 GMT -5
Additionally, none of the $105 million in deferred money would be subject to state taxes, potentially saving Scherzer another $8.92 million. All told, the lack of state income tax in D.C., when compared to playing in tax-heavy states, could save Scherzer eight figures. One source said the tax advantages could end up at more than $20 million, offsetting much of the money lost via deferrals.Right, I was referring to the cost to the club, not the Scherz.
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Post by aaugusti on Jan 20, 2015 11:51:23 GMT -5
At $15 Million per year, I don't think M<ax is really that concerned about the NPV. Yes it is better to have the money now, but Max hasn't exactly been stupid with the money he has earned.
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Post by ChrisBrown on Jan 20, 2015 16:33:37 GMT -5
So our rotation is way worse, no bullpen help and cespy? Cool offseason bro. I think it's possible to make a case that the rotation will be almost as good as it was last year. Here's a WAR-based breakdown for comparison: 2014 Tigers SP
| 2014 fWAR
| 2015 Tigers SP
| 2014 fWAR | 2015 Projection
| Max Scherzer
| 5.6
| David Price
| 6.1
| 5.5 - 6.5
| Anibal Sanchez
| 3.4
| Anibal Sanchez
| 3.4
| 3 - 4
| Justin Verlander
| 3.3
| Justin Verlander
| 3.3
| 3 - 4
| Rick Porcello
| 3.2
| Shane Greene
| 1.2
| 2 - 3
| Drew Smyly
| 1.0
| Alfredo Simon
| 0.9
| 0.5 - 1.5
| Others*
| 3.3
| Others
| 0.9
| 0.5 - 1.5
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*Includes 2.4 from David Price, and 0.9 from Lobstein, Ryan, VerHagen, and Farmer combinedDavid Price and Max Scherzer are basically a wash, except Price tends to pitch deeper into games. The main hope here is that Anibal Sanchez can stay healthy and give the team more than the 120 innings he pitched last year, and that Verlander can come back and be closer to the pitcher he was in 2013 than the pitcher he was in 2014. If both of those things happen, you're at the upper end of their projections. Then the question is Shane Greene, who was shockingly good last year, albeit in a limited sample of about 80 innings. From what I saw, I think that kid is a legit #4 starter, with the chance to be even better, but you never know with pitchers. I think Simon is kind of a bum, but in the end you're probably talking about maybe a 1 WAR difference between him and Smyly. The Tigers staff was worth about 20 WAR last year, and I suspect the 2015 staff will be worth something like 18-19 when you factor in a possible midseason trade. The team defense should be significantly better this year too, so we may see that reflected in some of the pitching numbers. The lack of bullpen help is certainly alarming, but man, bullpens are just so unpredictable. There are a lot of ifs involved, but it's not too crazy to think that Soria will return to form, and one or both of Hanrahan and Rondon will be healthy and productive. All three could fall apart too, but that's a risk with every pitcher ever. Add in Alburquerque and Gorzelanny and you have the chance for a decent group, and they still have guys like Hardy, Alex Wilson, Josh Zeid, and any of the starters like Lobstein and Farmer to help round out the bullpen. I still don't expect it to be great, but I'm certain it will be better than last year. And the offense should be fine. I think Hunter and Cespedes are basically a wash offensively, and the Davis/Gose platoon in CF should provide the same value the Jackson/Davis platoon did last year. Iglesias is still a question mark, but if he comes back healthy I think he's a net upgrade over Romine/Suarez. I don't know. There's a lot of sunshine there, but I think there's a tendency to look at how last year ended, then look at the relatively small moves made this offseason, and think the Tigers run is over. I think they should still be the favorites to win the division, and from there it's all about getting lucky and being hot at the right time. I'm drawing a blank on Greene, but too lazy to google. Acquired from the Yankees in the three-way deal that sent Robbie Ray and Domingo Leyba to the D-Backs, and Didi Gregorius to the Yankees. He'll be a really interesting player to watch this year. He was never much of a prospect, and he really kind of came out of nowhere last year. I heard a bit about him and just assumed he was one of those random minor league guys who comes up as an emergency starter and has a bit of success before the league figures him out. When I saw him dominate the Tigers for 8 scoreless innings I was really pissed they were getting worked by some no-name. And then he dominated them again three weeks later. The most shocking thing to me was that this no-name seemed to have really, really good stuff. He primarily throws a sinker in the 92 range, but he can also ramp up and throw his 4-seamer by guys at 95. And then he has a really sharp slider in the 83-84 range, and a nice cutter around 87-89. I'm guessing the Tigers will work with him to refine his changeup, but there's no reason he can't be a solid MLB starter right now. sure.. either way, its a stupid contract I actually think it's a brilliant contract for everyone involved, and I don't understand why we don't see more like it. From the Boras standpoint, it's a huge win, because all the headlines say "$210-million contract." For Scherzer...he gets a huge payout, and it continues long after he's retired, which I think would provide an added sense of security. And really...baseball players have maybe 2-3 months off a year, so it's not like getting just $15 million a year is going to prevent him from doing anything that getting $30 million a year would allow. And for the Nats, sure, it will be annoying to be paying a guy $15 million for 7 years when he isn't even on the team. But at the same time, it gives them much more wiggle room in the near future. Doug Fister and Jordan Zimmermann are both free agents after 2015. If they're paying Scherzer $30 million a year, then they probably can't sign either guy...but if they have another $15 million to work with? They might be able to stay competitive for much longer. I love it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2015 16:37:59 GMT -5
So our rotation is way worse, no bullpen help and cespy? Cool offseason bro. I think it's possible to make a case that the rotation will be almost as good as it was last year. Here's a WAR-based breakdown for comparison: 2014 Tigers SP
| 2014 fWAR
| 2015 Tigers SP
| 2014 fWAR | 2015 Projection
| Max Scherzer
| 5.6
| David Price
| 6.1
| 5.5 - 6.5
| Anibal Sanchez
| 3.4
| Anibal Sanchez
| 3.4
| 3 - 4
| Justin Verlander
| 3.3
| Justin Verlander
| 3.3
| 3 - 4
| Rick Porcello
| 3.2
| Shane Greene
| 1.2
| 2 - 3
| Drew Smyly
| 1.0
| Alfredo Simon
| 0.9
| 0.5 - 1.5
| Others*
| 3.3
| Others
| 0.9
| 0.5 - 1.5
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*Includes 2.4 from David Price, and 0.9 from Lobstein, Ryan, VerHagen, and Farmer combinedDavid Price and Max Scherzer are basically a wash, except Price tends to pitch deeper into games. The main hope here is that Anibal Sanchez can stay healthy and give the team more than the 120 innings he pitched last year, and that Verlander can come back and be closer to the pitcher he was in 2013 than the pitcher he was in 2014. If both of those things happen, you're at the upper end of their projections. Then the question is Shane Greene, who was shockingly good last year, albeit in a limited sample of about 80 innings. From what I saw, I think that kid is a legit #4 starter, with the chance to be even better, but you never know with pitchers. I think Simon is kind of a bum, but in the end you're probably talking about maybe a 1 WAR difference between him and Smyly. The Tigers staff was worth about 20 WAR last year, and I suspect the 2015 staff will be worth something like 18-19 when you factor in a possible midseason trade. The team defense should be significantly better this year too, so we may see that reflected in some of the pitching numbers. The lack of bullpen help is certainly alarming, but man, bullpens are just so unpredictable. There are a lot of ifs involved, but it's not too crazy to think that Soria will return to form, and one or both of Hanrahan and Rondon will be healthy and productive. All three could fall apart too, but that's a risk with every pitcher ever. Add in Alburquerque and Gorzelanny and you have the chance for a decent group, and they still have guys like Hardy, Alex Wilson, Josh Zeid, and any of the starters like Lobstein and Farmer to help round out the bullpen. I still don't expect it to be great, but I'm certain it will be better than last year. And the offense should be fine. I think Hunter and Cespedes are basically a wash offensively, and the Davis/Gose platoon in CF should provide the same value the Jackson/Davis platoon did last year. Iglesias is still a question mark, but if he comes back healthy I think he's a net upgrade over Romine/Suarez. I don't know. There's a lot of sunshine there, but I think there's a tendency to look at how last year ended, then look at the relatively small moves made this offseason, and think the Tigers run is over. I think they should still be the favorites to win the division, and from there it's all about getting lucky and being hot at the right time. I'm drawing a blank on Greene, but too lazy to google. Acquired from the Yankees in the three-way deal that sent Robbie Ray and Domingo Leyba to the D-Backs, and Didi Gregorius to the Yankees. He'll be a really interesting player to watch this year. He was never much of a prospect, and he really kind of came out of nowhere last year. I heard a bit about him and just assumed he was one of those random minor league guys who comes up as an emergency starter and has a bit of success before the league figures him out. When I saw him dominate the Tigers for 8 scoreless innings I was really pissed they were getting worked by some no-name. And then he dominated them again three weeks later. The most shocking thing to me was that this no-name seemed to have really, really good stuff. He primarily throws a sinker in the 92 range, but he can also ramp up and throw his 4-seamer by guys at 95. And then he has a really sharp slider in the 83-84 range, and a nice cutter around 87-89. I'm guessing the Tigers will work with him to refine his changeup, but there's no reason he can't be a solid MLB starter right now. sure.. either way, its a stupid contract I actually think it's a brilliant contract for everyone involved, and I don't understand why we don't see more like it. From the Boras standpoint, it's a huge win, because all the headlines say "$210-million contract." For Scherzer...he gets a huge payout, and it continues long after he's retired, which I think would provide an added sense of security. And really...baseball players have maybe 2-3 months off a year, so it's not like getting just $15 million a year is going to prevent him from doing anything that getting $30 million a year would allow. And for the Nats, sure, it will be annoying to be paying a guy $15 million for 7 years when he isn't even on the team. But at the same time, it gives them much more wiggle room in the near future. Doug Fister and Jordan Zimmermann are both free agents after 2015. If they're paying Scherzer $30 million a year, then they probably can't sign either guy...but if they have another $15 million to work with? They might be able to stay competitive for much longer. I love it. I think Scherzer will be secure after about year 1 of his redonk contract. All that is play money.
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Post by flemgoblue on Jan 20, 2015 16:55:03 GMT -5
I think paying a guy north of 30, that pitches 6 innings per game, 210 million dollars is ridiculously stupid. IN 2-3 years when he's in massive decline, have fun paying it for another 10-11 years afterward.
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Post by ChrisBrown on Jan 21, 2015 10:24:37 GMT -5
I think Scherzer will be secure after about year 1 of his redonk contract. All that is play money. Yeah. Realistically, he's already secure after making about $30 million over the last three years. But I'm sure it's nice to have that paycheck continue rolling in after you retire, no matter how much money you have. I think paying a guy north of 30, that pitches 6 innings per game, 210 million dollars is ridiculously stupid. IN 2-3 years when he's in massive decline, have fun paying it for another 10-11 years afterward. That's the way the game works though. The Tigers are paying a 1B/DH $30 million a year until he's 40, because that's what it costs to keep him. It's a terrible idea, but you do what you have to do to keep your assets. Team know that players are likely to be massively overpaid at the end of their contracts, but most just accept the $30-million albatross. I think it's smart to spread that pain out for much longer and give yourself more wiggle room.
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Post by flemgoblue on Jan 21, 2015 10:28:36 GMT -5
a hitter has a much better chance of success later in his career than a SP and i dont think eating up part of what youre willing to spend ( since its not a cap sport) for 7 years after he retires is smart. if they target 100 mil in washington, then 15% of their cap is gone for the next 14 years, probably only 5 of those years with any kind of production associated.
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Post by ChrisBrown on Jan 21, 2015 12:03:26 GMT -5
a hitter has a much better chance of success later in his career than a SP and i dont think eating up part of what youre willing to spend ( since its not a cap sport) for 7 years after he retires is smart. if they target 100 mil in washington, then 15% of their cap is gone for the next 14 years, probably only 5 of those years with any kind of production associated. It's not a cap sport, but there IS the Competitive Balance Tax, which can be very prohibitive. The tax number is $189 million until 2016, so the Nats are safe for now, but they'll be approaching $150 million this year, and Jordan Zimmermann, Doug Fister, Denard Span, and Ian Desmond will all be free agents after this year, with Strasburg a FA in 2017, and Harper and Rendon shortly thereafter. If they want to continue to compete with this core, and they should, then their payroll is going to approach $190 very quickly. That extra $15 million now could keep them from losing a key piece when they are primed to compete, and the empty $15 million won't mean much to them in 2024 when they are probably rebuilding anyway.
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Post by flemgoblue on Jan 21, 2015 13:40:34 GMT -5
I think its insane money to pay him.. baseball needs to go to a cap. the practice of paying guys for what theyve already done is insanity
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Post by fastfreddie on Jan 28, 2015 16:10:00 GMT -5
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Post by mtdman on Feb 5, 2015 14:18:53 GMT -5
Sports cented just reported that VMart has a torn miniscus in his left knee and will havd surgery next week to repair it.
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Post by ChrisBrown on Feb 5, 2015 14:20:08 GMT -5
Yep, likely out for 2+ months. It's a real bummer, but netter now than in the middle of the season, I suppose. And the addition of Cespedes should keep the offense from completely collapsing.
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Post by philly on Feb 5, 2015 14:25:49 GMT -5
I think he'll come back but will have no power the rest of the season.
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Post by flintoid on Feb 10, 2015 13:39:37 GMT -5
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Post by philly on Feb 10, 2015 16:14:38 GMT -5
The less Rod the better. Just can his ass.
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Post by flemgoblue on Feb 10, 2015 19:11:27 GMT -5
who are these people that like rod allen? and why do they like him?
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Post by mtdman on Feb 10, 2015 19:49:18 GMT -5
I can't stand him, that's why I mostly listen to the radio broadcasts.
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jrolla
All-Matt Stafford
Posts: 267
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Post by jrolla on Feb 11, 2015 8:01:56 GMT -5
Unless it's the radio broadcast I don't really care who the announcers are for Baseball games. Most of the time they are just background noise to me. I don't love Rod Allen or hate him, I guess I'm just indifferent and don't really give a shit.
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