Pollux
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Post by Pollux on Dec 29, 2014 20:42:44 GMT -5
I would take that debate. Eli's barely 3rd tier. Too much butt hurt in this thread. Fact is our fanbase is fickle and despite not winning shit for 20+ years- we have this weird sense of entitlement. Stafford is not an elite QBR like Bree's (who sucks this year), Peyton, Brady or Rogers... He's not really even 2nd tier (though he has flashes) like Homo, Luck, Big Ben or Rivers. He's towards the top of the 3rd tier. I'd take him over Alex Smith, Palmer, Ryan, Fitz, Flacco or Cutler all day. I would probably take Wilson over him though. You'd probably take Wilson over Stafford? Entitlement? Holy shit you are so off base dude. This city hasn't seen a winner in 50 fucking years? Entitlement? Fucking ridiculous comment. It's more the butt hurt part and none of the entitlement part. Our fan base isn't just fickle it's bipolar. Somebody else is always the answer at QB. The Lions started us on this path in '91 when they couldn't figure out whether it was Ware, Kramer, or Peete. Remember when McMahon was the answer and not Harrington? This is a bad town to play QB in. It's bad enough guys left here and played well elsewhere without it fueling the paranoia. Kramer and Jim Miller went to Chicago and made us pay for years.
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Pollux
All-Kirk Gibson
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Post by Pollux on Dec 29, 2014 20:43:45 GMT -5
i see where he's coming from. 20 years of "if we just had a qb who wasn't terrible, and could manage a game..." - then you get one, and people are pissed he's not aaron rodgers. ignoring the fact that rodgers would suck taking snaps from that turnstile for 5 years. Definitely. This.
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Post by Juicy on Dec 29, 2014 20:45:10 GMT -5
I would take Flacco and cutler over staff and I would take Wilson 100 out of 100 times over stsffdong
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reggie
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Post by reggie on Dec 29, 2014 20:45:12 GMT -5
it's the worst thing about lionfan. total "thanks, obama." mentality.
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Pollux
All-Kirk Gibson
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Post by Pollux on Dec 29, 2014 20:46:16 GMT -5
it's the worst thing about lionfan. total "thanks, obama." mentality. SOLF
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Post by Deuterium Oxide on Dec 29, 2014 20:47:14 GMT -5
You'd probably take Wilson over Stafford? Entitlement? Holy shit you are so off base dude. This city hasn't seen a winner in 50 fucking years? Entitlement? Fucking ridiculous comment. It's more the butt hurt part and none of the entitlement part. Our fan base isn't just fickle it's bipolar. Somebody else is always the answer at QB. The Lions started us on this path in '91 when they couldn't figure out whether it was Ware, Kramer, or Peete. Remember when McMahon was the answer and not Harrington? This is a bad town to play QB in. It's bad enough guys left here and played well elsewhere without it fueling the paranoia. Kramer and Jim Miller went to Chicago and made us pay for years. Most fans are silly like that. I work with a HUGE Bears fans and he has told me numerous times that he would love to have Stafford instead of Cutler.
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Pollux
All-Kirk Gibson
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Post by Pollux on Dec 29, 2014 20:50:13 GMT -5
It's more the butt hurt part and none of the entitlement part. Our fan base isn't just fickle it's bipolar. Somebody else is always the answer at QB. The Lions started us on this path in '91 when they couldn't figure out whether it was Ware, Kramer, or Peete. Remember when McMahon was the answer and not Harrington? This is a bad town to play QB in. It's bad enough guys left here and played well elsewhere without it fueling the paranoia. Kramer and Jim Miller went to Chicago and made us pay for years. Most fans are silly like that. I work with a HUGE Bears fans and he has told me numerous times that he would love to have Stafford instead of Cutler. Did he by chance in August tell you this was the year? My brother lives in Aurora and he said they are pretty delusional.
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Post by Deuterium Oxide on Dec 29, 2014 20:52:28 GMT -5
Most fans are silly like that. I work with a HUGE Bears fans and he has told me numerous times that he would love to have Stafford instead of Cutler. Did he by chance in August tell you this was the year? My brother lives in Aurora and he said they are pretty delusional. He definitely thought they were gonna be good until about wk 2. By wk 8 reality had set in and he was hoping they would lose out.
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Pollux
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Post by Pollux on Dec 29, 2014 20:55:17 GMT -5
Did he by chance in August tell you this was the year? My brother lives in Aurora and he said they are pretty delusional. He definitely thought they were gonna be good until about wk 2. By wk 8 reality had set in and he was hoping they would lose out. Maybe it's because he's so far away from the collective. When they benched Cutler I asked my brother if they were jumping off of bridges there. He said it was pretty bad and that everything had come crashing down around them.
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Pollux
All-Kirk Gibson
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Post by Pollux on Dec 29, 2014 20:59:16 GMT -5
Brady has already restructured his deal. Hint. Hint.
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Post by joeking1978 on Dec 29, 2014 21:14:01 GMT -5
I would take that debate. Eli's barely 3rd tier. Too much butt hurt in this thread. Fact is our fanbase is fickle and despite not winning shit for 20+ years- we have this weird sense of entitlement. Stafford is not an elite QBR like Bree's (who sucks this year), Peyton, Brady or Rogers... He's not really even 2nd tier (though he has flashes) like Homo, Luck, Big Ben or Rivers. He's towards the top of the 3rd tier. I'd take him over Alex Smith, Palmer, Ryan, Fitz, Flacco or Cutler all day. I would probably take Wilson over him though. You'd probably take Wilson over Stafford? Entitlement? Holy shit you are so off base dude. This city hasn't seen a winner in 50 fucking years? Entitlement? Fucking ridiculous comment. That's the point- outside one playoff win 21 years ago- yes, we haven't won for 50, which is why it blows my mind when you fickle idiots start clamoring that you would take 2 bigger disappointments in Cutler and Eli. Sure, Stafford isn't a top tier II QB, but what the fuck do you think we would get as an alternative? Outside any sure thing 1st or 2nd tier QB (who wouldn't come here) you're a fucking moron if you think we'd be better off with those other options.
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Post by joeking1978 on Dec 29, 2014 21:15:30 GMT -5
i see where he's coming from. 20 years of "if we just had a qb who wasn't terrible, and could manage a game..." - then you get one, and people are pissed he's not aaron rodgers. ignoring the fact that rodgers would suck taking snaps from that turnstile for 5 years. Bingo
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wacko
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Post by wacko on Dec 29, 2014 22:03:33 GMT -5
Stafford would be fine as a game manager... if the Lions took him in the third round and were paying him Alex Smith money.
The truth is, the fact that he was a #1 overall pick and the Lions are paying him like a top #10 QB changes the expectations of what he is supposed to be.
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reggie
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Post by reggie on Dec 29, 2014 22:27:01 GMT -5
why do people think a players draft position/salary has anything to do with their ability? christ, it's not like a guy would get incrementally faster/smarter/more accurate based on where he was taken or how much he's paid.
you can give roy williams stupid-money and he still sucks. kickers who can't kick, tight ends who can't catch and/or block, trading away extra picks to take drew motherfucking stanton in the 2nd round.
but good idea to bitch about the player.
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Post by mtdman on Dec 29, 2014 23:03:07 GMT -5
Stafford would be fine as a game manager... if the Lions took him in the third round and were paying him Alex Smith money. The truth is, the fact that he was a #1 overall pick and the Lions are paying him like a top #10 QB changes the expectations of what he is supposed to be. I disagree with that all day. If he sucks, he sucks. If he's good, he's good. Tom Brady was a low round pick and that fact didn't win them super bowls, his great play did. Stafford's problem is he plays inconsistent. One week he's all world and puts up a ton of points. Next week he's throwing balls into the ground. That shit needs to stop, period. The expectations are over inflated because he has those inconsistent games where he looks like a world beater one week and next week looks like JoeHar. Is he over paid? Probably. Does that matter on the field? Nope. Gator kept using this stat today: Stafford is 0-15 on the road against winning teams in his career. Why can't he win on the road? Is he just plain old not as good as he should be?
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wacko
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Post by wacko on Dec 29, 2014 23:14:14 GMT -5
Because that's the way the world works?
When I'm rummaging through the kitchen at work and I find the last can of Chef Boyardee in the cupboard, I'm pretty happy with my find and I'll eat that shit up. However, if I go to a nice Italian restaurant and pay $30 for a pasta dish and they tried to serve me that same can of Chef Boyardee, I'd be pissed off.
If I spent $15 to watch the latest Ninja Turtles movie in IMAX 3DDD, I'd be unhappy. But a 1AM Netflix, drunk-viewing with some friends, then it's actually a pretty good time.
The same thing is true with any athlete. I don't expect Corey Fuller to put up Calvin Johnson numbers. But say some asinine franchise like the Jaguars thinks Corey Fuller is the next Odell Beckham Jr. and pays him $15 million dollars a year, their fans are going to expect him to replicate similar results to ODB, regardless of whether or not that's fair.
So if Stafford didn't want people comparing him to the NFL's best QBs, he shouldn't have signed the big contract like one. It's all about perception, expectation, and return-on-investment, and thus far, the return on Stafford is a lot less than what the Lions have put into him.
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Post by fastfreddie on Dec 29, 2014 23:14:30 GMT -5
i see where he's coming from. 20 years of "if we just had a qb who wasn't terrible, and could manage a game..." - then you get one, and people are pissed he's not aaron rodgers. ignoring the fact that rodgers would suck taking snaps from that turnstile for 5 years. That where I'm at too. It's like the 30 year old Virgin, after a that long, anything looks good!
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reggie
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Post by reggie on Dec 29, 2014 23:24:53 GMT -5
i don't think stafford cares that anyone compares him to the nfl's best qbs.
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wacko
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Post by wacko on Dec 29, 2014 23:28:54 GMT -5
Stafford would be fine as a game manager... if the Lions took him in the third round and were paying him Alex Smith money. The truth is, the fact that he was a #1 overall pick and the Lions are paying him like a top #10 QB changes the expectations of what he is supposed to be. I disagree with that all day. If he sucks, he sucks. If he's good, he's good. Tom Brady was a low round pick and that fact didn't win them super bowls, his great play did. Stafford's problem is he plays inconsistent. One week he's all world and puts up a ton of points. Next week he's throwing balls into the ground. That shit needs to stop, period. The expectations are over inflated because he has those inconsistent games where he looks like a world beater one week and next week looks like JoeHar. Is he over paid? Probably. Does that matter on the field? Nope. I would argue that it does in the NFL. If I pay you to be one of my three best players, then I expect you to be one of my three best players. Calvin is regularly one of the Lions' best players. Suh is often the best player on the Lions' defense. Stafford is rarely one of the Lions' three best players on a given Sunday. Because you have a finite amount of money you can use to field an NFL roster, if I can find someone who can bring what Stafford does at half the price, that gives me more resources to go out and field a better team around an average QB. The argument of Matthew Stafford vs. Alex Smith or Carson Palmer is one thing, it's a whole 'nother deal when it's Matthew Stafford vs. Alex Smith, Brandon Flowers, AND Justin Houston. Now if this was baseball and contracts were just a number and you can go bonkers with the rest of the roster, it's a different story and I'd be more inclined to agree with your point.
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Pollux
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Post by Pollux on Dec 30, 2014 5:27:21 GMT -5
i don't think stafford cares that anyone compares him to the nfl's best qbs. Right along the lines of what I was thinking when I read it too. I've never heard him complain.
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jrolla
All-Matt Stafford
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Post by jrolla on Dec 30, 2014 8:19:16 GMT -5
Valenti made a good point yesterday (Hard for some of you to believe, I get it) that because of the situation with Stafford they are once again going to need to protect him even more in the off-season. They need upgrades on the line similar to what SF did with Alex Smith and Dallas is doing with Romo.
Also, if Ebron continues to play awful who is the TE? God that pick was horrible.
Couple all of that with Calvin being another year older and has banged up more and more each year does that mean we look for his future replacement?
Joique will be 29 and I love him but he's not the long term solution. Assuming Bush is gone that leaves Bell and Riddick. I like Riddick but he is more of a Scatback and not a starting RB.
All of that without even addressing the 3 DT's who are FA's (Suh, Fairley, Mosley)and other FA's on Defense.
Next year could be rough.
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Post by joeking1978 on Dec 30, 2014 8:25:18 GMT -5
Stafford would be fine as a game manager... if the Lions took him in the third round and were paying him Alex Smith money. The truth is, the fact that he was a #1 overall pick and the Lions are paying him like a top #10 QB changes the expectations of what he is supposed to be. Gator kept using this stat today: Stafford is 0-15 on the road against winning teams in his career. Why can't he win on the road? Is he just plain old not as good as he should be? This is one of the biggest paint eating stats I've ever seen. So suddenly football isn't a team game? So the lions success now solely falls on the shoulders of Stafford? Yup, Gator is right- Stafford lost all of those games by himself.
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Post by fastfreddie on Dec 30, 2014 8:36:58 GMT -5
So Cousins, Hoyer and Sanchez will be free agents this year, and none of them are expected to be signed as starters. If you are the Lions, do you bring any of them in to be Stafford's back-up and possibly push/compete for his job?
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jrolla
All-Matt Stafford
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Post by jrolla on Dec 30, 2014 8:43:19 GMT -5
So Cousins, Hoyer and Sanchez will be free agents this year, and none of them are expected to be signed as starters. If you are the Lions, do you bring any of them in to be Stafford's back-up and possibly push/compete for his job? I really want nothing to do with any of those guys but at this point I don't know what other options The Lions have. If they plan on drafting a QB to sit behind him I don't know how high of a pick they would use so that might not even be worth it.
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Post by joeking1978 on Dec 30, 2014 8:46:25 GMT -5
I just saw that Stafford was sacked 45 times this year. Only Bortles (55), Tannerhill, Kaepernick and Alex Smith had more. By comparison- Romo (30), Rogers (28), Big Ben (33), Peyton (17), and Brady (21), Brees (29), Luck (27) all took significantly less QB pressure despite having more or nearly as many passing attempts.
Yet- to the lions fan base- it's easier to just replace the QB than our entire offensive line and O-line coach
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